Surviving "The Dip," Overcoming Burnout, & The 3 Buckets of a Good Life w/ Brian Lofrumento (Part 2) - Ep. 2

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Jerome, before you and I hit record together today, you were just going through those uncertainties of I don't know my style just yet. I don't know what I'm gonna say as soon as I hit record. I don't know all of these things. I don't know how I'm gonna sign off on these episodes. And Jerome, the only way we get to figure those things out is by doing it. So I'm gonna throw the mic right back at you. I always appreciate having guests who do that on my show. So I'm gonna do it here on your show. And Jerome, I'm gonna call that out. Is that for you? You face here in episode one so many uncertainties, and you've got a lot to figure out along the way, though you're crushing it already, and I knew you'd be a natural podcast host. But talk to us about that feeling of not knowing but still doing, because that's where I was after that experience.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

Um I think it's always been something that was it it didn't uh like it didn't change the fact that uh uh there wasn't any other option but to do it. Like there was no backing out anyway. Like there's uh like uh and that's been a constant theme across my life. Uh you know, whether it was starting playing baseball at, you know, in my late teens because I wanted to come over to the US and experience something new and going over and then like you know, quite literally go going to uh for my first semester to uh a pretty competitive junior college uh that you know were uh a couple of years after I left, they uh I I can't remember if they won it or not, but they they were in the the world's uh the world's you know, JUCO World Series uh like final game. Um and I'm here learning also the basics of and the fundamentals that some of these, you know, all of these guys learnt, you know, when they were four or five years old. Um and we also had uh uh you know, and this was small town Iowa, uh, we had you know the coach who had been there for years and years, uh, and very good coach, but he and he is a you know uh if there's a coach archetype, he was a drill sergeant. And uh I it's funny because you know I've I've had a number of those uh throughout my life uh in different different forms and like uh he could be a real asshole, but I respected him so much, and that's the you know the common theme. And so like I'm always uh like I'll always be grateful for him because he taught me a lot of uh he taught me a lot of lessons through just uh kind of you know through just kind of shedding on you. Um you know, like it was uh you know, it was my I remember my first first practice uh at that JUCO and I'd played summer baseball and it was not the same level as this junior college, and so I was a catcher when I started out. And so uh we're started off and we're doing bullpins. So pitchers are in there, and all the pitchers, uh, you know, the um the sophomores who are coming back, you know, are they they they're having you know they're they're also to prove themselves to the freshmen so that they don't get beat up by some stud freshmen coming in, the freshmen are coming in, pitchers trying to show that they are hot shit and deserve to take one of their spots, right? Like it really is like a you know, before the uh before a team bonds into like a tight-knit group uh for the spring, baseball team, it's kind of cutthroat and it's like uh like uh your team, but also like I'm gonna beat you out for your spot and make you watch me play type thing. And so here I am. Uh I'm I have never caught a real slider before, uh because none of the pitchers that I'd ever caught in my sh you know less than 12 month baseball career at this point threw an actual like tight, really good slider. Um so I get in there, first uh you know whatever I can't remember uh but early on into the ballpen, one of the sophomores is throwing and he uh the pitching coach wants to see slider. So he slows slider, hits my glove, and I drop it. Because it's first time I've fucking seen a real slider. So I really first time I didn't know what the fuck it was gonna do. Uh and I dropped it. Okay, should have squeezed it tighter, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Old coach is behind me, and he said he said something like Longs of like, what the fuck? Who the fuck are you? You fucking sad excuse of a baseball player. Why the fuck did we bring you here?

SPEAKER_02 5:13

And I'm like, Alright. It's gonna be it's gonna be a long day. Um and you know, it was uh it was just that, you know, and that that was just how he was, and he, you know, that was you know, it was also similar to like my high school, like a lot of people that I started with, friends that I grew up with at uh we call primary and intermediate school, um, which is your elementary and middle school, uh, that started my high school, uh, don't like don't make it through to graduation. They go to different schools because uh it's tough. Like it's uh it's like a tough school. Like it's a school where they they would bring back the cane if it was legal. Um and it was you you know, you're you're called uh you're like my name at school is not Jerome, it's McKenzie. Uh and it's the it's based around tradition and respect, and you are your last name, and you uh like there is just no room for any uh any behavior that is not exactly you know how they've structured it. And so um I was used to that kind of and so a lot of people I started that school with never make it through. Um and so like this style of coach is uh you know, he's and and I really do appreciate and respect that style too, in the way that like it is a sure way to weed out the quitters that and you know anyone who's gonna quit uh you know, quit on themselves right there is not someone that you want to like go to battle with, right? And so um and throughout that semester I wanted to quit uh most days, uh, but uh it was never an option for me. Um and so like I just knew that I was going to uh I was like I I all that was really the only certainty I knew is like I wasn't gonna quit. And you know, I ended up ended up uh tearing both hamstrings at different times or pulling them, um missed most of the fall ball, um wasn't up to scratch, and I got cut uh after that semester, but uh at least uh you know uh the thing that I wasn't gonna let happen was I was not gonna I was not gonna quit uh and give up. And so I guess that's kind of you know that's just kind of uh that's just my style. Like uh I uh I'm I'm gonna do it and I might have those, you know, I think most people, you know, before doing anything new or uncertain, there's gonna be those kind of thoughts and you know, a lot of imposter syndrome and un you know uh discomfort, but um, you know, it's always the doing those things uh is where kind of life gives you on the other side um you know your greatest your greatest gifts and your biggest growth. Because if I had of if I had have quit mid-semester, I would have gone home and I wouldn't be here sitting talking to you with you know my two dogs, my amazing wife, my new family I've uh I've gained since uh and been welcomed into, and uh and I wouldn't be American, uh New Zealand American first generation immigrant either. So that you know, that one easy decision I could have made any of those days uh um was just it was I think it's really just making it never an option and um just removing removing the amount of variables that you have to decide on, you know, uh less decisions. I always like to go with less decisions uh or less things to choose from when making a decision.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

It's interesting hearing the words that you use, Jerome, because uh anytime I get to have these meaningful conversations with somebody else, I pay so much attention to what is their internal dialogue? Because our internal dialogue always shines through in the words that we choose when we're speaking out loud. It gives a massive glimpse and hint into the way that we talk internally to ourselves. And so, Jerome, when I hear you say things such as, well, I didn't have a choice, I'll be honest, where my head goes is, well, you did have a choice. But then the way you explain it, I realize, no, you've eliminated all the other choices in your head. So truly, you don't have any other choice. You're just doing it. And I'll share with you my equivalent of the way that I talk to myself internally in that similar scenario to you. Is for me, I do this really weird thing, and and I say this inside my own head at least 50 times a week, no joke and no exaggeration, is I frequently say to myself, yeah, most other people would quit. This is the thing. This right here, if there's something I'm tackling that is tough or difficult or I just don't feel like doing, I always say those words in my mind. Yeah, most people other most other people would quit. Most people would not do this thing. And so I can give so many different examples. When I published my first book in 2015 called Well Entrepreneur to Entrepreneur, which that was the spark that a year later I started the podcast, which, similar to your story, Jerome, the podcast changed my life. Literally, hosting the W Entrepreneur to Entrepreneur podcast changed every single aspect of my life. And it started because I published the book a year earlier. And so I'll never forget when I was writing that book, how many people said to me, Oh, you're writing a book about entrepreneurship. Aren't there so many other books about entrepreneurship? And my only answer, because the only correct answer is, yeah, there are, but nobody's ever written it the way that I can write it. And I can't write it the way anybody else can write it. And so when I wrote that book, I decided that I was going to manually ship out to a lot of people who doubted me a copy of that book. And so what I did in those moments was I got, you know, hundreds of copies of my own book. As an author, you can get very cheap copies of your own book. So I ordered a bunch of author copies and I hand wrote a message in every single book that I wrote that I sent out. Now, some of them were to the haters, as I already alluded to, but a lot of them, and most of them, of course, were to people who offered me support and encouragement and wisdom along the way. And through all of those experiences, Jerome, every time I signed a book, I'm like the worst handwriter ever now because I never use those muscles. None of us ever handwrite anymore. And so every single book that I signed, I was like, it'd be so much easier to not do this. But that's where everybody else would quit. And nobody else would be doing what it is that I'm doing. And so every single book that I signed and wrote a handwritten note to, that made me realize this is the special stuff. This is what makes me me. And I think about it in every single facet. Before you hit record, I'm sure today you were thinking to yourself, probably be easier to just not do this, probably be easier to just not hit record, probably be easier to not have to think about this, to not be on the spot, to not have to, you know, have a long conversation with somebody. It's way easier, Jerome, to not do. And truth be told, can anybody start a podcast in 2026? Yes. But most people won't do what you and I did. Most people will not actually go through with the discomfort. Most people will not actually go through with buying a microphone, setting up their lights, setting up their interview platform, and actually hitting record. And if they do, then most people will listen back to that episode, decide that they hate the sound of their own voice, and never hit publish. And guess what? I hated every single one of those steps as well. But every single one of those steps I hated, that was my inner dialogue. Most other people won't do this. Most other people will quit in this moment. And that drove me to say, I would like to not be most people. I would like to do the things that most other people wouldn't do. And I frequently, if if there's one area in life where I'm certainly not great, Jerome, it is around cold water. If you ever go to a pool with me, I will be that prissy guy who bends over and sticks my pointer finger in the water to see how cold or warm the water is. And then I will proceed to be that guy that will be like, I'm gonna jump in the pool. No, I'm not gonna jump in the pool. I'm just gonna jump in. No, I'm not gonna jump in. It's way too cold for me. And I often look at other people who just jump in the pool and and it really puts life into perspective for me where I realize they jumped in, it was equally cold for them as it is for me. Me being outside of the pool is not making the pool any warmer. And so I'm either going to eventually jump in or not, might as well just make my mind up right now because when somebody else jumps in, they just get used to it sooner than I did. I am just putting myself through that misery for a lot longer than that other person. And I think that that analogy, as silly as it may sound on the surface level, is so true in all things in life in business.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

Yeah. No, I mean, 100% the biggest torture you put yourself through is the anticipation of the thing that ends up not being that bad. Um, but for me, uh the one thing that you were incorrect about is that today thinking it'd be easier not to do it because for me, um that moment was when I purchased the microphone, because my wife was there when I purchased the microphone. So then if I didn't do it, I that was when this became off the table to of the point of no re uh return. Um because then I would have to return the microphone. And she would know I returned the microphone, and uh or if I didn't return uh I'm sure, you know. Yeah, or even you know, this desk uh that I uh this small standing desk that I put together, like there's no returning this, I don't believe, uh to wherever this came from, because there's screws in the wood and it's not returnable. So that was that was you know, that is uh not made that not become an option. But um yeah, I think it's it's uh your inner dialogue, so like uh it's you know, it's what you know something I think about uh often and uh recently thought about uh when I was um when I was writing, because you said no one writes actually freehand. I actually I write every morning, so my muscles still do uh get that workout, and I still dislike it as much as I did when I had to write essays in high school uh and still every few sentences go grasp my hand because it almost like and I've often thought why don't I just use whisper and dictate uh what I'm supposed to write, and it's like but there's just something to the you know pen on paper uh that for this purpose that is different, but it's the only thing that I will write freehand. Um but is uh like the stories that we tell ourselves, right? And I think that there's something uh and I say this in finance and accounting um often, and you've heard me talk about it, like the uh, you know, really the convergence between uh human behavior and finance to kind of come into like that neurofinance uh kind of spectrum is uh you know, for what is, you know, what I believe is like the uh one of those things that is like truly one of the most important things is especially when you're looking at things, you know, like numbers on your financial statements for your business, you know, and you break it down and those are and you see them for what they are, which is just outcomes, uh then like what are the inputs? Because you know, it's uh certain inputs create certain outcomes. And so if you can have the right inputs, then the natural consequence will be the favorable outcomes that you want in your life with and you know, and financial are uh a you know a small piece of that, or but albeit an important one. And I think when I look at uh either entrepreneurs that I know, or uh in any of the books uh that I've read and you know uh hearing anecdotes about different entrepreneurs, or uh, you know, uh we've talked a lot about some of the different books, and a lot of those a lot of books have have really shaped a lot of my beliefs. Um you know, like I think one thing that's in common with uh all these entrepreneurs that uh you know have achieved a level of you know success, you know, which is definable, you know, uh by each person differently, um is the stories that they tell themselves. And because I I can't imagine going through this life and lifestyle uh and it being a sustainable life that you keep doing if you're also fighting against yourself because of the stories you're telling yourself. Like you have to be on your own side if you want to even have a shot of being successful and making it, whatever that means to you. And so that's why m the most important thing that I do each day is uh that I just know is gonna be if I can only do one thing and this will give me the best chance of success, whatever that means to me that day, it's gonna be working on my mindset and making sure that I'm telling myself stories that are going to be uh beneficial and conducive to where I want to go.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

And I that speaks to Jerome. I'm a sucker for quotes. You know that about me, and and your listeners have probably realized that about me throughout our conversation today. But one of my favorite quotes ever is directly applicable to exactly what we're talking about right now, which is we don't see things as they are, we see things as we are. And to me, a very tangible story of what that looks like is 2020. I'm sure when when we talk about 2020, I think every human being on earth, 2020 evokes very clear memories, very clear feelings come back to us. We all know how we spent our time in 2020. And it was funny when the entire world shut down in March of 2020. I was living in Los Angeles, California. And so living in LA in 2020, I'm convinced LA was one of the most shut down cities in the country. And so when the entire city and country and essentially world shut down in 2020, I saw how many people thought to themselves, well, we'll just collect unemployment for the next six months or however long people thought it would be at the time. And, you know, I don't have to go to work and I'm just gonna settle in and I'm gonna watch Tiger King on Netflix. I feel like that was the thing that a lot of people dug into. And I remember clearly I'm I'm a bit of a junkie for history. And I studied economics and finance and in university. And I instantly, as soon as the markets crashed and as soon as the world shut down, I went back to the 1930s, the Great Depression. And I have always been fascinated by one thing in particular about the Great Depression. And that thing that I'm fascinated by is the Great Depression created more millionaires than at any other time in history. And so when 2020 happened, I said to myself, there are opportunities presenting themselves that most people are going to miss out. And so that year, I started two brand new businesses. I started a health and wellness company with one of my friends who's a former pro soccer player from Germany, and I started a company called the Launch Coalition, which I went on to sell at the end of 2022. And it's crazy thinking that in a world, and by the way, both of those companies were rooted in the very real problems that we experienced thanks to COVID. And so the Health and Wellness Company, with my friend who is a personal trainer and former pro soccer player, he was training people in person. And he is such an incredible trainer. He's one of my favorite people on this planet. I still work to work with him to this day. And so in that moment, I talked to him and I said, look, Everyone's at home. You should be doing the type of training that only you can do, but let's do it online. Let's bring that online. Let's uh come up with an entire suite of products and supplements that you personally believe in and use. And let's sell that to people in a time where we're all shut down, in a time where people can't go to the gym. And then the launch coalition was an online community of entrepreneurs who just didn't want to be alone. That was literally the entire premise of that company. And so I saw opportunity in 2020. That was the springboard for what became my next chapter. And every single one of those building blocks has manifested in ways that I couldn't imagine, but they all have left clues and hints and setups and building blocks into what it is that I do today. That all came about, Jerome, because in 2020, I saw opportunity. So that's what I found. In 2020, somebody else found shutdowns, and that's what they found. And they paused their life in 2020. So I think that yeah, the points that you make, we don't see things as they are, we see things as we are.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

Yeah, no, I I like that quote. Um that's uh yeah, no, and it's I mean it's it's true. It's uh I mean it's uh I think if you know any I think anywhere in uh across history, especially, you know, as far as even economic economic opportunities, right? Like, you know, uh by the time that it's you know everyone also when everyone knows about this thing and everyone doing it, that's kind of that's you know often the time where it's too late uh and you've kind of missed the boat. Not too late, but you know what I mean. Um uh and it's doing it in you know that uncertainty as well. Um and so uh there is one thing I wanted to uh go uh talk about that was uh has been impactful for me since I came and visited you uh back in uh beginning of February, was it? Um I believe of this.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

Time flies, especially when I just ask I ask you every week, Jerome, come back to Florida, come hang out.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

But there's something there that a story you told me um about uh you know, it's about uh and it's I mean it's evident in how I watched you uh and how your you know your your businesses uh are crafted around uh your life, not the other way around. And particularly about burnout, which is obviously something uh that we talked about a little bit while I was uh in town. Um and I know that b that's changed the way that I uh you know build my days uh a little bit now too, to make at least to make sure uh, you know, and there's um I'll let you I want you to tell the story and and tell that exact saying, but uh I I think paraphrasing but what you told me was to make sure that you'd you know fill up each of those those cups every day. And so like I've made sure I've really tried to make sure that I've done, you know, especially for me, it's like doing something something fun and for me every single day, which is uh uh has resulted in a 65-day uh chess.com streak as of today. That's been uh if I do nothing else today that is uh that is fun, uh, or for me, like if I can't get out there and go and uh play around of golf or uh you know do anything crazy like that, I'm at least going to play one game of chess online and uh and because that's fun. Uh so but I want to uh I'd love if you could talk about your story of burnout and why you uh will never, you know, I know that you will never let that be something that ever has a chance of walking through the door ever again.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

Yeah, so that this takes me all the way back to 2012. And it's I I just graduated from college, obviously was was pretty successful with my soccer blog, which was my first real company. And so, because of a result of that first company, so many other businesses, and especially online businesses, because again, the internet wasn't as developed then as it is now. You have to remember, Facebook is still relatively new in the world, YouTube is relatively new in the world. And so what I was doing in the blogging world was very new in the world at the time. And so so many other business owners were emailing me saying, kid, how the heck did you do this? Can you help us get this much organic search engine traffic? And so I responded to those calls by starting a search engine optimization and marketing agency back in Boston, all the way back, like I said, in 2012. And Jerome, I'm a sucker for hard work. And so if I'm gonna play a game, I'm gonna play it to win it. And so we got as many clients as we could. We blasted through the six-figure mark in our first year in business, which is funny because myself and my business partner at the time, we were two 22-year-old kids fresh out of college. Neither of us had ever run an agency, neither of us had ever managed clients, neither of us had ever written a single proposal, but we just went forth and we did all of those things and we found some level of success through that experience. But what we didn't realize, at least consciously, was what that was all leading to. And so we were working. It's funny, I feel like anytime people talk about burnout, they say, I was working 80 hour weeks because they just take 40 and multiply it by two. I am pretty sure we're working way more than 80 hour weeks because it got to the point where quintessential startup story, we were running our agency out of my parents' basement. It's like such a cliche, but we've got the pictures to prove it. Anytime my mom would come down in the middle of the day with fresh cut-up fruit, she'd be like, Oh, you guys are so cute. Let me take a picture of you guys and put it on Facebook. So it's hilarious to look back at those days, but it was to the point where we were working so late, day and night, that my dad would get up to get ready for work in the morning and he would be leaving for work and we would still be working from the night before. And he would just be like, You guys, you gotta go to sleep. Like, this is crazy. You guys are gonna burn yourselves out. And so we didn't realize it along the way, but a few years into that agency, we absolutely were burned out. And I didn't know what to call it, I didn't know how to deal with it, and I certainly didn't know how to navigate and overcome it. And so I paid a decent amount of money to hang out with somebody who I really lucked up to, a New York Times bestselling author, his name's Jonathan Fields, who Jonathan is a fellow podcaster as well. He's got an incredible show. And Jonathan's backstory, which left a mark on me, I went camping with him in upstate New York at this entrepreneurial camping summer camp that he had put together. And he told so many amazing stories over, you know, the night's fire and we were all making s'mores. And Jonathan talked about how he previously, and I'm paraphrasing a lot of his story, but I think I get the main points right. And so Jonathan was one of the most successful high-powered attorneys in all of New York City. And Jonathan was working, you know, 80 plus hour weeks every single week, to the point where the only time he'd leave the office is to go downstairs in Manhattan, move his car from one side of the street to the other because of street cleaning. You have to do that, otherwise, you're gonna get a ticket. He would sleep in his car for the 20 minutes or so that it took the street cleaners to come by. He'd move it back and go straight back up to the office. And his then girlfriend, now wife, her name's Stephanie, she's amazing. His then girlfriend at the time, her dad said to Jonathan, This is not sustainable. You're gonna burn out. And so, sure enough, enough time went by that Jonathan actually started literally bleeding from his insides. He had a stomach ulcer, and that woke him up and he realized, I want to be here one day when I have kids. I want to be here for all of life's important moments. And so he decided that he was going to do something radically different with his life. So, what did he do? Well, he signed a lease to open a yoga studio in lower Manhattan, and he signed that lease on September 10th, 2001. And so, sure enough, he woke up the next day, and as someone who was very successful and living in a part of New York where a lot of other people were wealthy and successful and working high-powered jobs, many of whom worked in the World Trade Center. They obviously, Jonathan woke up that morning to the news of 9-11 happening. And so that night he went over to his neighbor's house, who is his neighbors had lost their husband or their father. And Jonathan went into that house to offer his condolences and read those kids a bedtime story, knowing full well that those kids will never see their dad again. And so that began Jonathan's mission, which he's still on to this day with his podcast and his many amazing books, where he asked himself, what is this all about? What is life all about? What actually constitutes a good life? And so he published all of those findings in his one of his books, best-selling book, called The Good Life Project. And what he found in all of those studies, he researched so many people from so many walks of life. I'm pretty sure Jonathan has like interviewed Oprah or he knows Oprah or he's in those circles. So we're talking about the upper echelon of people who have accomplished amazing things in their life. Jonathan interviewed them and studied them. And what he found so consistently is that there are three buckets to a good life. And the quality of your life is determined not by the most filled bucket, but actually the quality of your life is determined by your least filled bucket. And those three buckets that he identified are contribution. What do you contribute to the world? For most of us, this means our work. So, Jerome, you and I are having a conversation on the airwaves right now. We are contributing something positive to the world. We are hopefully striking a chord with at least one listener out there, and that gives us fulfillment because we as human beings, we are meant to contribute to the world. We are meant to contribute to others. But that's just the first bucket. The second bucket is connection. We're also social creatures. We're meant to connect with others, connect with our family, connect with people we care about, connect with our friends, connect with ourselves. We're meant to connect in so many different ways. And then the third bucket is vitality. It's those things that make you feel alive. For me, it's playing a game of tennis or playing a game of chess and thinking or watching a soccer game or running around and kicking a ball, whatever those going for a bike ride. For some people, it's yoga. For some people, it could be meditation. For some people, it's going on a vacation or taking a bubble bath. Whatever that looks like, we need to fill that vitality bucket. And coming back to Jonathan's very important point because a lot of people hear this story and they think to themselves, well, yeah, I do a lot of things that fill the vitality bucket. My vitality bucket's overflowing. I take a bubble bath every night. I love playing golf. I love watching TV. Well, okay, but what's your least filled bucket? Are you filling your connection bucket? Are you filling your contribution bucket? And Jerome, for guys like you and I, it's really easy. Our contribution buckets are almost always overflowing. We love the work that we do. We love serving other people, but ultimately the quality of our life is not determined by that overflowing bucket. We have to be filling each of those three and all of those three buckets every single day and every single week. And for me personally, it's it's how I structure my days. And Jerome, it's really been rewarding seeing how that has evolved for you over time as well.

SPEAKER_02 33:46

Yeah, well, and I mean, that's um, I I'm gonna have to read uh read his book because uh I mean that story is um obviously it had a profound impact on you, and secondhand, uh in your own experience, it's had a profound impact on me. And um yeah, I mean it's uh for me it's been uh like uh this like you know like a sense of urgency uh has been something that I've always kind of felt, right? And it's that uh you know, and uh there's of there's often the you know the expression I'll sleep when I'm dead, right, right? And uh so um you know, without the thought of that that will come sooner if you don't also sleep now. Um and sleep has been something that I've uh luckily been made a w more aware of because uh of a uh over a year ring and aura ring. Um and um I haven't even shown you uh exactly, but so like tracking back in January, like you know, sleep scores, right? Um you know, which for each person a d a good sleep score is different. My uh you know, for me to say like that was a good night's sleep uh is a is a 70. Uh I think the I reached I actually got my highest sleep score last month, first time ever breaking into nine the 90s with a 91. Uh but previously there's been only a few occurrences uh of getting in the 80s. And so I know that uh so you know I'm starting last uh 2025 with you know 71, 70, then 69, 71, 70, 71, 73, and then in August is when uh you know things started falling into place with the business. Uh uh the slower few months of the summer uh were coming to an end. And I knew that you know August through Thanksgiving is going to be a sprint, and you know, it's gonna this is gonna be a real time to really hustle and uh and grind it out. And so then I saw my sleep scores drop off from you know what was you know, it would teeter around the 70 mark to uh 66, 64, 63, and it just kept dropping. And that's you know my average. So that means like that's my average sleep is is not good. Uh the average, you know, uh the average amount of hours I was sleeping was about four and a half, uh, from about September through our visit, uh, where I came and visited you in town. And then so like this is actually something that uh I only just realized yesterday. Uh, but if I you know my bottom was 63 in February, uh average score. This is you're seeing since where I had a 74 highest ever month of sleep scores uh in April so far. And part of that too is that um you know part of the my vitality cup that you're talking about has been uh which has also been something that has just getting me more uncomfortable because um when I visited you, you work mostly from coffee shops. I work from my desk, my setup that is comfortable and set up how I like it. And a coffee shop was uh maybe the most frustrating thing uh that I had to do. Well, maybe not, uh that day. There was a lot of uh lot of things that day that uh especially my uh the the ass whooping you handed me in tennis after not uh not feeding me or uh allowing me to have any water for uh in Tampa after I'd come straight from the airport to a coffee shop and then uh playing playing two and a half hours of tennis with someone who plays tennis. But and we won't go into that. Uh but is uh the yeah, the whole coffee shop setup was is was just like uh everything you know uncomfortable uh from the metal chair that I was in to the just the laptop and not having my things around me. Um I've been the same way about my morning routine. It's been and that's what you know how the sleep uh got sacrificed. It would be uh, you know, it would be Shaley and I staying up uh and maybe, you know, spit um doing more of the things because like what we like to do is watch shows together. Uh like that's what we do for fun, you know, watch an episode or whatever. And so then when whenever I have more time to watch another episode and go to bed a little later, I'll always do it. Uh and but the wake-up time of five o'clock never changed to because my priority was my morning routine and doing that and having enough time, which I never felt like I had enough time uh for anyway. And so that's been something that's changed is I still do the things that I need to and and uh part of that routine in the morning. But um depending on when I'm going to bed, I'll make sure I'm getting uh how much you know uh more sleep uh so that I uh because I know that uh I feel better uh having finally caught up from you know my aura had over 20 hours of sleep debt uh that I'm still chipping away at, but I'm down to like four and a half now after two months of uh trying to dwindle that down and catch up on sleep. Uh but I you know you notice too that you know back to the stories you tell yourself, um you're just like the you know the the worst decisions uh come at a time where like you uh either are highly emotional or when you're not rest and you're tired uh and and you're fatigued. Like it's I've been shocked at some of the um you know some of the like the thoughts that you come creep into your mind when you're dead tired, uh, but you keep and you had just have to keep going. Um and it's you know it becomes a battle against yourself, uh, and it's like there's already enough things you have to overcome to to do everything in life. Why make yourself the enemy as well? Um and so like that is a huge had a has had a huge impact on me and making sure that I do something fun every day and I get enough sleep because uh you know I I knew burnout was gonna come if I didn't change something, and um I just kind of kept writing it without changing the habits that uh on my end uh until you told me that story. Uh and how uh you know I I had a new perspective and really made me think about like, well, you know, what is this all for as well? Like, you know, it's I'm actually being selfish and sacrificing everything that I've put all this work into. If I'm gonna burn out and then say, fuck it, I'm done completely, then you're just blowing all that hard work up for nothing. Um and you're no good, you know, you're no good to yourself or the people you love and care about if you burn out and fizzle out and can't be useful to anyone.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

And I think that we've all heard that phrase of you can't pour from an empty cup, and we inherently know what that phrase means, but I think what we forget is Jerome, especially that day in the coffee shop together, it felt to me, I I remember I just I know my natural lulls. As an extreme extrovert, energy drives me in so many different ways. And and contrary to obviously introverts, also energy drives them, but it's more conservation of energy. And how do I restore my energy? Well, as an extreme extrovert, I have to be moving. I have to be around people, I have to be doing things in order to maintain my energy levels and keep them high. And so for me, I can't sit in one coffee shop for eight hours. I certainly cannot sit home alone for eight hours and work from a home office. Jerome, I still don't know how you do it. But for me, I have to be moving. And I remember a few hours into our day is about the natural time where I will switch coffee shops or I will go for a bike ride on the river walk in Tampa, or I will do something that involves physically being around moving energy, which for extroverts, that means other people. And so it was so fascinating for me to see in that day, Jerome, how you felt like that shift was the opposite of doing the work, where you were just like, well, dude, we have so many things we need to do. Like, we need to talk about this, we need to talk about that. And I think I actually said out loud, I certainly thought it in my head is that, well, doing those things is gonna help us do the work. Like if we go play two and a half hours of tennis, we're gonna feel so alive. We're gonna be thinking in such a different space. We've been sitting at our computers, at our laptops in this coffee shop for hours at this point. We're not gonna have any miraculous breakthroughs the more that we sit here. Let's go do something, let's go shoot a basketball, let's go play tennis, let's go do something. And I think oftentimes because of the hustle mindset that is so commonly applauded and encouraged in today's society, we think that it's the alternative to work. But I would argue, and if you read about any of the famous inventors, read about the way Thomas Edison spent his time and the things that he tried and the things that he did outside of inventing, and how Frequently, that led him to the very inventions that changed the world. So, yeah, I think that we need to encourage this stuff more. Jerome, I will very publicly call out here and in this episode of your own podcast that since you've started playing chess, I've noticed in a difference a difference in the way that you talk about strategy and the way that you talk about tactics and the way that you measure your current moves and your future moves and how intentionally and strategically you think about certain things. And have you always been that way? Yes, I'm sure that those are things that you have a natural aptitude towards, but now you're flexing those muscles in different ways. You're adding to your repertoire, you're adding to your arsenal of life experiences and different realms that your brain plays in. And I think that that's healthy for all of us, whether it's chess, whether it's tennis, obviously I'm super biased towards those types of activities. But it's been really cool, Jerome, to see you step into those things as well. And I think that for all of us, it's it's a life lesson that we can encompass and it trickles into every aspect of our lives. It makes us when people ask me why am I always so happy? Why do I always have so much energy? It's because of these things. It's because I get to fill up all three of these very important buckets and do it in meaningful ways that brings me joys. Very, very rarely am I doing things that I don't enjoy.

SPEAKER_02 45:27

Yeah. No, it's, I mean, and at the end of all this, right? It's uh, you know, I think, you know, this kind of goes full circle on where we began our conversation too, uh, and just shows how connected all of these things are. Is like it all kind of wraps around back around to like what what is this all even for? Like like why like why do this and why live this life if you uh if not to also you know beyond your external why and for the people you want to serve and help and the impact you want to make, you still have to like it has to be a life worth living that is uh you know that helps you achieve your version uh of like what makes you happy. Um and so no Brian, thank you so much for being uh guest number one uh on the podcast. Thank you for being a great mentor to me for pushing me to do this, uh and all and obviously uh and most importantly for being uh a really great friend. And so I wanted to, and you know, this is uh you know, my favorite uh uh uh my favorite show after obviously the entrepreneur to entrepreneur podcast is Stephen Bartlett's Diary of a CEO. And one thing that I wanted to do, my own uh my own uh flavor of my own version of this, uh, how he asks uh his guests at the end of every episode to what's a question to ask their next guest. I wanted to, my own version that I want to do, and I want to ask uh and make this tradition on the No Trade Secrets podcast uh when we're about to close on an episode. What's one trade secret that shouldn't be a secret anymore?

SPEAKER_00 47:27

Yeah, Jerome, I love that question and thank you for the kind words. And Jerome, most of all, thank you for being willing to show up for other people. I often think about whenever I tune into a podcast that I get a ton of value from, it reminds me that this podcast host is not doing all this work because it is a ton of work that goes into making this production possible and these conversations possible. And Jerome, not everybody is willing to do that work. So thank you for doing this because it's a reminder that you're not doing it for you, you're doing it for the people that are tuning in. So that means a lot. And to answer your question, what's something that I don't think should be a trade secret anymore? Gosh, for me, the answer to that is you just have to be way more willing than the next person to be terrible at something. And that has popped up in my life and businesses in so many different ways. Jerome, off air, I shared with you a video that I published that was it was one of the first ever videos that I published on my YouTube, if not the first. And I had zero views back then. Now we have almost a million views on YouTube, which I'm excited about because I've never been a YouTuber. That's totally not in my repertoire. It's totally not something that I focus on. But the title of my first video was my worst video. Why? Because every time I sat down to record a video, I thought to myself, I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing behind a camera. I have absolutely no idea how to be a YouTuber, how to come up with these hooks, how to do any of these things. And so I quickly realized that, well, my first video is inevitably gonna be my worst video. I'm only gonna get better at this thing over time. So I might as well record my worst video ever and get it out of the way. And my second video is gonna be my second worst video ever, and my third one's gonna be my third worst video ever. So if it gets better every time, I just have to be willing to be terrible at it longer than the next person. And so, whether it's in the realm of podcasting, people always ask me, what's what does it take to become a top 1% show? This is the real trade secret, Jerome, that should no longer be a secret, which is you just have to be willing to be terrible at something. Because every single person on planet Earth started out terrible. If we could go all the way back in time and see the first 1,000 times that Roger Federer swung a tennis racket and tried to hit a forehand, I promise you, Roger Federer looks terrible. He was a child when he first started. You would not look at his swing and be like, that's the future world, number one. No, he was terrible and he had a lot to learn. And so he went through, and Seth Godin calls this the dip. And when Seth Godin talks about the dip, he talks about at first, it's really easy to get marginal gains in something when you're learning it. But inevitably, in every topic, whether it's tennis or chess or business or podcasting, you get to a point where getting better takes even more energy. We can all get to a certain level of competence in anything. And so that's what he says is the dip. When you start exerting more energy and getting less results, that's the dip. And the dip is where most people quit. And so people who have been truly extraordinary at anything Michael Jordan, Roger Federer, Magnus Carlson in the chess world, name any billionaire, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, all of these people put out a lot of terrible things before they ever got good at something. So I believe the trade secret that should no longer be a secret is you have to be willing to be terrible at something longer than the next person.

SPEAKER_02 50:51

No, I love that. And so, in the spirit of that, here's to my worst episode then.

SPEAKER_00 50:57

Yes. Cheers to you, Jerome. Honestly, so excited, super grateful for you having me on the show, and so excited to have this be that one show that I absolutely hit that subscribe button to. And you know what, Jerome, as a fellow podcaster being on your podcast, I feel obliged, and I hope you start doing this on every other show that you go to. I feel obliged to remind listeners that so few people on this planet ever take the time. It takes two minutes to leave a rating and review for shows that they enjoy. But when we talk about whys, when we talk about measuring our impact, when we talk about intrinsic value, this stuff not only makes a difference to the rankings, yes, it does do that. That's why every content creator says, smash that like button, hit subscribe, but also for the show hosts that put so much work into this stuff for you and I, the listeners, leave Jerome a rating and review. I know especially early on in his show how much it matters. So, Jerome, on behalf of myself and all your listeners, congratulations to you and super grateful to see you on the airwaves.

SPEAKER_02 51:55

Thank you. Appreciate it, Brian. Thank you for being uh episode uh on episode one and my first guest. So, um, where can people find you? Where can people learn more about you and and all of your businesses, especially uh, you know, obviously biased uh uh to say, but ops plusai, which we are a uh very proud uh client of yours. Um, where where can people go to reach you and to find you?

SPEAKER_00 52:22

Heck yeah. So two main places, just search my name, Brian LoFermento, in your favorite podcasting app, and you will find the Wantrapreneur to entrepreneur podcast, or better yet, just go straight to opsplusai.com. That's spelled out. So OPS and then plus spelled out, P-L-U-S-A-I.com, opsplusai.com. And Jerome, you also, I know as a great podcaster, you're gonna be dropping all those links down below in the show notes. So, of course, listeners, click right on through down below. You can also find me on LinkedIn. I would love to hear from each and every one of you. If you slide into my DMs, whether it's on LinkedIn or Instagram, you can go to IMetBrian now that you've met me on Jerome's show, IMetBrian. I promise I will reply to every single message that I get. So, Jerome, once again, thank you for giving me this stage.

SPEAKER_02 53:07

Thank you, Brian.