From Produce Stand to Tech Platform: Scaling a Hospitality Revolution w/ Michael Casciello (Part 1) - Ep. 45

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Today's guest is Michael Castleello. Michael is the co-inner and founder of Food, Fire and Nile, on a classical trans wife whose culinary journey began at just the age of 14 years old at a local project store in New Jersey. He soon moved into restaurant coaching, starting as a bushwasher before working his way up to the fires and eventually creating his own special. He later studied restaurant management at Walnut Hill College and held at the Culinary Institute of America along a certified master show. After experiencing the long hours and limited freedom of the traditional restaurant industry, Michael set out to build something completely different. Starting in Charleston, he began bringing fine dining directly into private homes, combining food, education, and entertainment while creating a more flexible path for chefs to start their culinary journey. Michael, thanks for being on the show, man. So you said you started your journey uh at the age of 14 in a produce stand. Um how did that work? Uh what were you doing? Were you was that your like first job as a 14-year-old? You're you're working a produce stand, and how did that then take you down this path to to lead to where you are now?

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Yeah, I think it was uh it was sort of born out of uh having too much free time in the summer. Uh so I got my first job when I was 14, like you said, at uh uh this little rinky dink produce stand on the side of the road. And uh, you know, it was it was just for extra money um and just to sort of learn what it was to work. You know, I got dropped off and picked up by my parents every day. And uh, you know, one thing that I learned from it was about produce and how it's grown and and you know what it looks like when it's fresh and what it looks like when it's going bad. And you know, at the time I wasn't I wasn't too interested in it, um, but it was just you know, uh it was just a way to sort of like get by uh and buy some video games or you know, whatever. Um and then from there uh I just I started really taking an interest in it. Just you know, they they would allow us to you know take some stuff home, and I just thought it was so cool because uh some of those guys were growing it in the fields, uh giving it to us, and then uh you know, we I would share with my family, obviously. And it was just such a cool thing. Uh it almost felt like I was making it. Um, and then from there, uh going back to school, uh, starting the new school year, uh, some of my friends were talking about their jobs that they were getting. And I remember one of my friends he was saying he uh he got a job in a restaurant, and um it was like a quick service sort of like KFC style, uh homemade fried chicken and macaroni and cheese. And sounds like my kind of restaurant. It was so good, it was delicious. Uh it was called the Village Roaster. Um, and uh the first question I asked him was, you know, are you able to eat as much as you want? Like, do they have chicken tenders? And he's like, Yes, they do. And yes, you could eat whatever you want, whenever you want. And I was like, sign me up. Uh so I got all the information I applied, and I think it was probably about like, I want to say six months after, um, I got a phone call from Cheryl, the owner, and uh, she brought me in. And uh, you know, the same thing, like like you said, I started as a dishwasher, worked my way up to the fryers, uh, and then you know, looking back, I mean, I I think I was there for she's four or five years, uh, but she was so great to me. And uh again, it was one of those things where you're not really interested in it, uh, but then you just it sort of like grows on you, and um she was so kind to me, and uh she knew that you know I started to get interested in cooking and how to make things better and faster, and uh so she would like order fillets of salmon for me, even though it did not fit the concept at all, and she would have me come up with these like crazy salmon dishes. Uh, they never sold, I don't think not one of them sold, uh, but she would order it every day for her lunch, um, and it was just such a uh a nice way to sort of like help me find my place in the world. Uh, and then you know, I went to uh I was at the time um I was going to school for criminal justice and uh just at a community college. Uh I grew up in a really small town in South Jersey. Um, and the natural thing to do was to go to community college and then become a police officer, uh more or less. Um and I I remember it came the time where I needed to quit uh the village roaster and find like a simple like mall cop or like you know a Jersey Shore boardwalk cop uh job. And um I remember going in and I told her, like, hey, you know, this is what it sort of is leading to, and I just remember being so upset by it. Uh I quit that day, you know, I gave my two weeks, uh, I left. Uh, and about a week later, I was like, you know what? I just I can't imagine my life like not doing this. Uh so I I reached back out to her and I said, Hey, I'm I'm I'm coming back. Um and from there I remembered like receiving like a little postcard in the mail about the restaurant school at Walnut Hill College, it's called in in center or uh West Philly here. Um and so I went to that that was my first uh introduction to like a you know culinary school. Uh I went for restaurant management. Um and then from there I went to uh the Culinary Institute of America. Uh and that's really where you know all my passion came from with you know cooking and serving and and just you know the business in its entirety, not just uh kitchen life or food, uh, but just running running a restaurant uh and a business. Um and you know going even further, uh I moved to uh I got engaged to my uh ex-fiance now. Um, but uh we moved to uh Charleston, uh South Carolina, uh, because we wanted to sort of like live on vacation before we got married. And uh again, I just got a a job at uh you know uh on Daniel Island, just a morning job. The the deal was that we get morning jobs and then we could spend you know our nights and weekends uh sort of like hanging out in the city. Um and you know, from there I just uh I just knew that there was something else. Uh just because I I just you know the mornings wasn't enough for me. I just needed to work. I needed to work a lot, and I needed to do something more than just what I was doing. So uh I decided to open up a just a simple website for um private chefing, and because I was working during the day, I couldn't get bookings or or have customer service during the day, so it needed to be automated. Um, and that's where I made like a just a simple design where you could book it, and then I would call you within 48 hours, which is still holds true to this day, the 48-hour phone call. Um and uh I just I started getting just you know a booking here, a booking there. Uh, and then I remembered my first double booking, and that scared the hell out of me. Uh, and so from there I recruited one of my friends in the industry and I said, Hey man, if you could do this for me, I'll just I'll give you all the money. Uh, you know, don't worry about it. Like, you know, I'll just shoot you a Venmo, right? And um he took it, and he came back and he was like, Man, that was like the best experience I've ever had uh cooking and serving people like in their home. And then I you know I shot him, uh it was around like 1200 bucks. Uh it was a pretty nice size party. And he was like, he was like, I think you made a mistake, and I was like, uh, I don't think so. It was about twelve hundred dollars, and uh he was like, I will do this every single time, and um you know, then it happened again and again and again, like you know, double bookings, and I just kept sort of giving them out, and then it sort of hit me like, why am I, you know, why am I giving everything out? I should you know create a business out of this where I sort of like help these chefs get this business and use a little bit of that as sort of as a commission to grow the company and sort of expand. And then my purpose is set where you know anyone who feels like they're tied or imprisoned to the industry because it is very, very difficult to get out of. And you know, being a young person, I don't think you really understand the uh the amount of labor that goes into it and uh how it wears on your body, you know, as you progress through your 30s and your 40s. So I'd say this would be a great uh sort of exit route for a lot of chefs that still want to cook and still have a passion for food and the industry, uh, but want to sort of take it easier on their body. You know, they they need more sleep, uh, they just need to relax a little bit more, spend times on the weekends, uh, have off for holidays. Uh this is a perfect outlet for that. And that's sort of like how we grew and what we are today. Uh we have, you know, the the chefs set all of their own pricing, they get everything they want from an event. Uh and you know, it's it's been amazing seeing and and talking to these chefs. And like I never thought that this would be possible. Uh every year we have a uh a chef of the year party. Uh this one's coming up actually this Sunday. Uh everyone's coming to Philadelphia to me this time. Uh but we generally do it like around the country uh at different locations. Uh but it's a great way to celebrate that one chef that uh you know worked their butt off and had the most sales and the most reservations, uh, most five-star reviews. Like we have a whole sort of uh uh analysis of you know which chef wins. You know, we generally keep it to like the top three up until uh the announcement in uh in late July. Um we're all connected, we all have we all share a Slack forum. Uh so we all talk through Slack every single day, uh myself included. Uh so we keep this like connection and this like community uh of chefs. And honestly, even if you leave the company, if you say maybe this isn't right for me, you still have a home in our Slack, and you know, we're always there to provide you know assistance, or you know, if you need some uh you know uh extra ingredients, whatever it is, uh everything is in that Slack channel. And right now we have hundreds of chefs. Uh it's a constant sort of it's uh reminds me sort of like social media. Uh people post their food pictures, uh they ask for advice, they ask for help. You know, it's it's uh it's really interesting, and I I'm just I'm really proud of uh our team and sort of like where we've come from, you know, just a rinky dink Charleston location uh to now serving about uh 47, 48 states.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

So it I mean it sounds to me like beyond just the business of being able to provide uh the service of uh in-home dining with the chef, you are also creating a or have created a community and a support system for uh people in your industry, which um I've I've had uh guests uh on in the past uh in the hospitality realm. And um it's uh from what you know from talk from those conversations I've gathered, you know, how uh what the the industry is and uh obviously how brutal it is on uh on your body and on how and just in general for you know the whether it's the hours, uh the amount of hours, the the time uh that you're working, uh, you know, just being uh not night in that kind of nightlife uh environment. But um and uh a previous guest of mine had mentioned that there's there's not really a lot of advocates for uh the uh the the people uh that make up the restaurant team, uh which obviously is gonna extend uh all the way back to the kitchen uh with the the people making uh making the food while people are coming in. Um how how big of a part of the business uh and what keeps attracting other shifts to come and and join your community is that community kind of support structure system that you've built.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Yeah, I think so, I think you've kind of touched on the mental health aspect of it a little bit. Um and and you're absolutely right. There is uh little to no resources for uh mental health in the industry. They exist and they're out there, but you really have to seek them out. Um, there's not a lot of uh volunteered information out there to, you know, I'm struggling with you know, drugs and alcohol addictions. Um, you know, I I think a lot of times this is something that the you know chef uh managers uh or the restaurant owners uh should recognize. Um but you know, going back to sort of why we started this company is you know for that specifically. Um so it plays an enormous role uh in why we started the company, um to you know, not only physically but mentally get back to baseline, uh get back to a point where you can enjoy your life before it's gone, uh, get out of any sort of like, or help yourself get out of any addictions, uh spend holidays with your family, uh you know, have the weekends off, uh work around the house, uh sort of do like the normal stuff while still doing exactly what you love. And uh another part about that I think is great about our business is because we're so intertwined uh with our chefs and uh uh with our customers as well, um there's sort of three parts of our business. You know, we have the the business, which is us, uh our employees, then we have the chefs, and then we have the customers. And we see we kind of view the chefs and the customers uh sort of both just different types of customers. Um, so we get every single uh every single feature that we add or any sort of like improvements, uh things that we take away, add uh all goes through the chefs sort of as a hey, what do you guys think about this? Uh is there anything that you would add? Is there anything that you would take away? So we uh most of the time we clear everything through the chefs as well, and we sort of have a rule where uh it has to benefit uh at most at we would love it to benefit all three parties, um, but it has to benefit the chef and the customer. Um you know if it if it leaves us out of the picture, sometimes that's fine. Um, but uh it has to benefit both the chef and the customer. Uh we're launching new features almost every single month now. Um we have a uh we call it a coffee chat every two weeks. Uh we have a uh a meeting with all of our chefs in the company. It's every Tuesday at 11 o'clock Eastern. Uh everyone's free to join it. It's very casual. Uh we you know, we we sort of have a an agenda just to sort of start with, um, but we go through everything and we allow them to voice their opinions. Uh, you know, it doesn't matter that you're talking to the CEO and you know, the employees of the company, like tell us what you think. Be honest. Uh, if it's something that we can change, uh, we'll we'll change it. And if it's if it's something that we can't change, we'll be we'll be very honest with you. We'll tell you why it can't change. Uh and I think just having that sort of um that uh honest conversation with the chefs uh to see how we can make their lives better, uh, whether it's you know we're adding tipping through the platform, uh, we've added uh native reviews, we've added a chat, I mean so on and so forth. We have so many things that uh sort of makes the experience better for both the chef and the customer. Uh and although this isn't you know uh therapy for the chefs, um this certainly uh puts them at ease. Uh they're able to spend more time with their family, like I said, during weekends, holidays. Uh, if we handle a lot of the customer service, um we have uh native chat on the website, so they're able to answer through text on their phones, uh through email, you know, through uh several different means. Uh and it really allows them the free time uh to do whatever they want, you know.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Yeah, and as you're talking through this too, it uh has me wondering. So each shift that uh becomes part of one of your guys' shifts. That um are they are the are these shifts independent contractors uh or are they uh direct uh you know employees of food, fire and knives?

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Yeah, so these are all private contractors. Um so they're free to, you know, we only bring them onto the platform if they're uh sous chef. They have to be at the lowest is sous chef for a minimum of one year. Um and then you know, we have a lot of executive chefs, chef de cuisine. Uh so they have they have to have been uh in a managerial role for a minimum of one year uh in order to even apply to the website and and get an interview. Uh so we put them through um three different interview processes. We have uh uh orientation uh basically to you know just learn the back end of the site, see how it works. Um we provide every single resource to them tutorials, you know, videos. Uh like I said, we allow them to chat through Slack and all that. Uh but yeah, they're all independent contractors, they work when they want. Uh, they could you know pick up parties, they could transfer parties, they could really do whatever they want. They they are their own boss. Uh, and with that is you know, I I think a lot of perks. Like I said, uh everything I mentioned there, they get to set their own prices, they get to really dictate uh how they uh look and operate on the site. Um you know, we don't tell them what to do, we don't tell them where to be, what time. Uh they set everything for themselves, and we just handle that sort of customer service, that bridge uh between the two. Um we do all the marketing. Um, so there's a lot of benefits uh to being one of these uh chef contractors on our sites because really all you have to do is upload your menus, upload your profile, uh sort of groom it uh every now and then. Uh you could offer discounts, promotions. Literally, you're running your business uh through our website, uh, and we're just supporting that business.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

And what in scaling a business like this, uh it you know, from the early stories you're uh talking about with you know you got the first one and then you had your double booking, and then they just another, another, another, and it just seemingly kept gaining more and more traction. But over the years, what what what have been the challenges in uh scaling a business like this?

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Uh so I I think the the the one or the first thing I think a lot of uh new entrepreneurs or business owners can relate to is uh trust. Uh trust is uh by far, especially when you're new to something. Uh I I've never done this before, uh, starting this type of business and sort of learning along the way. Uh but I I just remember when we first had you know independent chefs going out on their own, because uh before that it was me going out with these chefs, and they would all kind of come along with me and assist me, and we would cook my menu, so to actually have these chefs uh put their own menus on the website, their own availability, trust that they're Going to show up to the host location, trust that they've prepped everything, trust that the food is good, trust that they're going to clean up everything. There's a you know a process to the whole event. And uh getting over that, I just remember like looking at my calendar on my phone saying, you know, uh Drew is supposed to be here at 5:30, Ed is supposed to be there at 6.30, and just just waiting by the phone to see if the host was going to call me and say, hey, my chef never showed up, or you know, this is a this whole thing is a disaster, you know, whatever it was. And it was the I'm telling you, it was the scariest thing I've ever been through. Um, but once, you know, once we got over that hump and trusting these chefs and knowing them, and I would even uh ask them if they needed assistance and show up to some of their parties and uh just kind of help them out in the in the back end. And uh developing that trust, I think, was um the the first major hurdle of the entire operation.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

And how did you how did you overcome that and uh learn to trust? Because I think this is a universal uh challenge for I think most entrepreneurs that they go through as they grow their businesses and add people to their teams. Uh is you know, the entrepreneur is often the one that's uh when they're starting out doing everything and everything is done to the entrepreneur's standards, which are going to be the highest that they'll ever be, uh, because no one will care more about your business than than you as a uh as the owner. And then when you but obviously in order to take a business to the next level, you you can't do it alone. And so then you bring on peop uh other people to join your team. And uh I know I went through this um as well. Um we're delegating and handing off things, especially when it comes to things that are you know client or customer facing um deliverables or outcomes or uh or things like you know, obviously, which that is entirely for you is when you you are you know not only selling to your customers uh the food that they're gonna eat for dinner that night, but also you're selling an experience that they want to have uh with the people that they're they're doing this with. And being able to let go and know that there's multiple different ways to do things and know your way might not be the only way or the the one correct way or even the best way. Um and uh for me just it took it it just took um it took time. Uh it took um and it was really for me when I was able to just take a breath and let go and just uh knowing knowing that I was getting in the way of of this uh this happening. Uh it wasn't to do with anything to do with anyone on my team, it was all to do with me. And I think there's an ego component attached to it too, because that you know it's like it's a bittersweet moment when you do let go and your team deliver uh or uh and you're like, well, it's amazing. I'm not that special as a you know, as a founder. How did you uh overcome that?

SPEAKER_01 25:57

So I I think a lot of it was uh realization through repetition, and uh out of many factors, you know, having having these chefs go out and nothing, nothing bad happening, the world not burning down, and them burning down a house or a kitchen, and just you know, constant uh constant perfect parties happening all around me and the customers writing five-star reviews, uh, we we like I I keep going back to this um this forum that we have this Slack thing and building this brand loyalty. Um so if you're just um a faceless company that's you know hiring contractors and you're just taking commission and you're just trusting that everything's gonna go well, Uber's an exception, Lyft's an exception. Uh but nowadays you have to really build uh this brand loyalty and having them be able to interact with the the owner of the company and make changes in real time. Uh obviously we put a lot of automations into the into the app and to the website. Um, for instance, like we have a um a notification that goes out if you haven't uh reached out to your your customer within 24 hours, and another one goes out uh every two hours after that until they reach out to the customer. Um we have a lot of processes in the back end automation that kind of ensures that the chef is on track and they have because let's put it you know honestly, a chef has so much to do, even in this business, right? Like they have to go shopping now, they have to prep for their food, they have to make sure everything's in order. Uh, a lot of times multiple parties at once, if they're doing you know, one uh a breakfast today and a dinner tonight, uh, they might have a lot of shopping, a lot of prep to do. Uh so we we built a lot of these automations into the website to keep these chefs on track. Um, but the automations only go so far um after a while, and if you don't you know have any conversations with these uh contractor chefs, uh they're just gonna sort of uh flirt away. They're gonna get a party and they're not gonna show up, right? Uh so we we our our our main thing is building this brand loyalty where the chefs love us, they love that we listen to them, they love that they can interact with us, they love that they could make changes, that they can adjust their prices, that we could we add these new features. We're always there to support them. Uh customer service, uh any ideas that they have. Uh, I can't stress that enough. That this creating this loyalty uh is one of our main attractors for sure.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

So is the company more do you see it as in its current form today more of a uh a technology platform or a hospitality service business?

SPEAKER_01 29:07

I I would love to say 50-50. Um once you start getting too far away from the hospitality, uh I think in food service, that's sort of when you get in trouble. Uh and of course there's exceptions to the rule. Um, but for something like this where someone's showing up in your home and and cooking you dinner and serving your kids, uh it's it's a very intimate process. And to just rely 100% on AI, especially now, uh, and and technology, uh, I think it's a huge mistake. Uh we use a little bit of AI, but the AI we use is mainly to make our jobs better, like for us to perform better, to be more precise and efficient, but we don't replace any of our jobs with AI. We don't have a you know the AI chat on our website. When you talk to the chefs through the website, you're not talking through AI. We we actually don't allow them to have AI in the, you know, we purposefully didn't incorporate an AI chat to like assist them with talking to customers uh because it should be their true voice. And you know, if if a customer decides to chat with 10 different chefs to find a chef perfect for their event, and every single one of those chefs asks how to respond through you know Claude or Chat GPT, it's just gonna read the same, uh like an AI is responding to them. So we want them to have misspellings and uh forget a punctuation and to talk like they naturally do. Uh, not every text message is gonna be perfect. Um, so I think that gives us that more uh human touch. So although there are a lot of automations into the website and it is an automated process to choose a chef uh to check out, uh choose your menu. Uh we make it so easy for the customer. Um we also give that option where if you don't want to even touch technology, that's fine too. Give us a call. Uh you could chat on our website, we'll help you, you will guide you through the website, we'll set even set up a manual reservation for you in the back end. We'll do everything sort of uh outside of technology if that's what you prefer. Um, but of course, the option to uh automate everything and just simply order, pay later uh is is still there for our customers. So it has to be a mix. Um and you know, we we we rely heavily on our customer service reps uh in the website. You know, when you chat with somebody, like I said, it's not a bot, it's not an AI. Uh we want to get you the best possible product from the first visit all the way through dessert. Um, so that that's sort of our our strategy.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

Where where do you where do you see uh the future of the company going and where uh what's your vision to uh for where you want to take it?