From Kitchen Dreams to Bar Realities, The Art of Researching Your Guests, and Why Hospitality Starts With Your Staff w/ Anton Kinloch (Part 1) - Ep. 28

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Today's guest is Anton Kinlock. Anton is a hospitality operator, bartender, educator, and consultant based in Hudson Valley. He's the owner and operator of Lone Wolf in Kingston, New York, and previously operated Fusha Tiki Bar in New Peltz. His work blends cocktails, food, design, education, and service into hospitality concepts that are thoughtful, intentional, and deeply rooted in the guest experience. Through his bars and consulting work, Anton has built a reputation for bringing creativity, technical skill, and a strong point of view to the hospitality industry. Anton, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Oh, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

So I'm curious how you first got into the hospitality industry because my first job back in Auckland and New Zealand was actually as a bartender at a pub. And so I got to experience from my first ever uh first ever job experience in um what that was like. And uh my dad had previously uh been in you know in his early 20s was a dorman uh at different nightclubs, and he told me when I went into it, because I was especially at the beginning, you know, being in uh a teenager, um it was a lot of fun for me to be thrust into this environment of late nights and fun with you know all the different people that I was getting to know at uh at this uh at this bar. Um and I remember one thing my dad said to me after I was out till 2 or 3 a.m. and I still lived at home at the time um on a Monday night that he was like, this is this nightlife is is not uh something for for everyone, and it's uh you can get caught up in the party aspect of it uh pretty quickly and pretty easily, and so it was kind of his warning to me. Um, but how did you get into hospitality first?

SPEAKER_01 2:07

So, in a very roundabout way, I started working in hospitality at the age of 14 at a local steakhouse. There was a really great spot in New Pulse called Barnaby's, and they were around for years, and my family and I had gone there numerous times, once, maybe twice a month, and by the time I'd hit 14, I was of the age where I could actually work. So I spoke to the owner and I said, Hey, it's the summertime, I'd like to pick up some hours doing something, and I was very fortunate that they had a position open as a busser. So during that first year of just busing tables, I learned a lot about guest interaction, I learned about the front house, the backhouse, and there was just something about the backhouse that was very enamoring to me. So I started coming in on my days off, even though I was only like a part-time student, like coming in doing 10, 15 hours a week. I would come in on my days off and actually just hang around the kitchen and just ask the cooks what they were doing, how they were doing it, why they were doing it. And they just saw me as this scrappy little kid, so they started offering me more opportunities. Hey, butcher this chicken, uh, peel this shrimp, do this, do that. It was all like very light work, but it was all culminating into something greater. And then in what was it? I think 2012? No, uh, yes, 2012, I ended up actually going to culinary school in uh in uh the Culinary Institute of America in Hyde Park. Now, prior to that, I had actually opted to get a four-year degree in business management because I had this idea in my head after working at Barnaby's for a couple of years and working my way up from a busser to a dishwasher to a prep cook to a lime cook, eventually a sous chef. Hey, I want to open a restaurant. I want to be a chef. So I thought to myself, well, how about I go into the business side of things first? I'm gonna learn everything there is to know about running a business, PLs, balance sheets, etc. And then I'm gonna thrust myself into the culinary side and learn more about the creative portion of it, and I'm gonna combine those two skills together, those two diplomas together into one cohesive idea. And it was not until after culinary school that my first job outside was not even in F and B necessarily, like in a kitchen, it was actually behind the bar. And I had no formal experience behind the bar. And the manager of the department just saw that I had a diploma from the CIA. He was also an alumni, and he said, you know what, you'd be a perfect fit, we're gonna throw you in trial by fire. And it kind of blossomed into a uh a full fascination with the hospitality side, like the greater scope of food and beverage, but more so on the beverage side.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

That's interesting. So um so with you, so your path did did with wanting to go into the restaurant side and obviously going to culinary school then, and with then where you were essentially like placed in that first job after uh culinary school, did that did that immediately change your perspective on or the road that you wanted to go down? Uh or was that something that happened over time?

SPEAKER_01 5:35

No, 100%. I think the exposure to the beverage side just kind of taught me a little bit more about front of house, things that I did not experience formally or as much as I could have. And it was a new aspect of the hospitality scene that I was not as familiar with, but it was so so interesting because in the back of house, you almost never get to interact with guests. You never get to see what people's reaction is to a dish. With front of house, especially with the bar scene, you get to see people's reactions immediately. That product that you were working on, that cocktail you're working on, you get to see immediately on their face whether they like it or they don't like it, or if you magically convince them that, hey, this is the new greatest thing that ever touched their lips. So I think that instant gratification was one of the driving forces of me staying in the beverage side. But being an enthusiast of all things, I also kind of deep dove into cocktail books, into history books, production uh of spirits. So anything I could get my hands on that was related to the beverage side of things, I just immersed myself in and took that all in. I consumed it, I absorbed it, and then I shared it with my guests, I shared it with my team, and that extra level of knowledge and understanding really helped kind of define me as not only a business person, but also as a uh educator in the hospitality scene.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

So did that then shift your plans from did you still want to be uh a business owner and it just shifted from restaurant to more focused around the bar uh as in as kind of the centerpiece?

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Yeah, I would say I would say it had a huge impact on my overall decision before I was intimately familiar with the financial side of what running a restaurant looks like. And beverage has historically, even over the last 20 years, has grown from being an afterthought on people's programs to now actually being the centerpiece because the margins are so much better. So looking at it from not just a creative side, but looking at it from a dollars and cents perspective, it just made sense that I should go into the bar side of things and have a small but tight food menu. And having that background at the Culinary Institute of America definitely helped kind of solidify my foundation, not just as an entrepreneur saying, hey, I'm gonna open a bar instead of a restaurant, but I'm still gonna have an amazing food program. It's just that we're not gonna be as heavily focused on the food as we normally would.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Okay. And so and it the the topic of or the you know the word hospitality, um, I feel like can have multiple meanings or it's something a word that's pretty open to interpretation. What does well like what does the word hospitality mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 8:48

I mean, for me, hospitality and for my team, hospitality is more than just the sum of its parts. I mean, if you look at service as one aspect, service is just you're going from point A to point B. You're literally just delivering a product or service in a specific way, but hospitality transcends that. You're talking about how do you make the guest feel? How do you make the overall experience and interaction memorable? And that's something that we discuss very frequently during our pre-shifts is how do we take this average night for somebody going out? Maybe somebody is celebrating an anniversary, how do we take it to the next level for them? Or somebody is celebrating a birthday, or somebody, God forbid, is uh mourning a loved one that just passed away. Like, how do we step in? How do we go beyond just delivering them a food item or a drink item? How do we deliver a whole experience where we can say to them, signal to them, hey, we see you, we recognize the situation you're in, and we're here to make it better. And having that human connection, that little touch, is really what helps to define a great hospitality business from an average one.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

And what is what are some of the ways that you um you guys might go beyond for that uh you know, that guest experience then that uh a lot of other people would probably overlook or not even think about when it comes to um you know really just the you know the the steps or the process or the service like you like you mentioned, uh like what are some of those things that can I I mean for us and something that I always encourage my my staff to do is like look up who you're talking to or look up who's coming into the venue.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

If you have a guest who's coming in, research them, try to find out a little bit more about them. Sometimes they have a social media handle that is easy to find, and hey, this person just recently posted that they were out on vacation in Hawaii or something, and they might have had a caption there saying, Oh my god, I had this amazing cocktail, I wish I could have it again. Like, we're gonna use that information, we're gonna try to replicate that same experience they had in Hawaii here, and unbeknownst to them, we're just gonna drop cocktail. Hey, surprise. Oh, how did you know? We just know. Um, it's interesting. Yeah, or or even somebody like uh is celebrating an anniversary. Well, I'm gonna go further. Like, we had somebody recently celebrating a six-year wedding anniversary. They didn't publicly post it, like I just deciphered it from social media posts, like, hey, the last time they posted about this was last year, right around this time. Uh okay, guys, cool. Like, it's their six-year wedding anniversary. Let somebody go to the store, get a candle that says six years, let's put together the dessert for them. Oh, they're gluten-free. Cool. Make sure you don't pull this dessert, pull this dessert. Uh, so like looking at how can we pull elements from their personality, from their insta uh from their social media, from their life that are accessible without being intrusive, and just dropping something off and kind of surprising them, catching them off guard. And those are the little moments that help solidify an experience in in our venue.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

That's that is super interesting. I I d I've never heard of um a business in your industry doing that or anything remotely close. Um I mean I've been uh I've I've been to restaurants before where uh with people who have you know put on the reservation online what an event is and then it would like where it's been completely missed, and you guys are actively going out and looking for things. And um to me it sounds like you got you guys are looking for ways to connect with complete strangers before they're even stepped in the door, which that's I mean, that's something I've I've uh that has to be is that is that common in your industry, or is that something that you've heard of before?

SPEAKER_01 13:05

It's common, but it's not as common as it could or should be, because a lot of times the place that I can think of most that use that exceptionally well is 11 Madison Park in Manhattan. They have an entire team literally dedicated to assisting their reservation team to cross-reference and research guests and find out. Like the first time my wife and I went in there, they not only knew that we were the owners of Lone Wolf, but they already knew everything there was to know about the tiki bar prior. They knew all about us, about my wife's dietary restrictions with shellfish because it's in Resi. But they went over and above to give us a full kitchen tour. Like, they they really did some deep research into our backgrounds in order to tailor the experience for us. And that's no easy feat, considering that they do run with a staff of about 150 people, so they they have the manpower, and I'm not saying that this is something that every single venue or operator should do, but that is a great example, though, of little touches that even if you tap into 10% of that can still make or break a guest coming back and becoming a regular.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

Yeah. I mean, no, I think it's it's the those little things that make all the difference that seemingly are uh can seem insignificant. Insignificant and not a factor. Um you know, because to uh there's a r um there's a restaurant local for my wife and I that we go to at least once a month. Like if if I'm asked where I want to go to dinner, that's where I uh that's where I say I want to go. And um it's it really comes down to they they have this uh they have they have this this pretzel bread that's really good that they bring out uh you know a loaf for everyone as they sit down. And I love this pretzel bread so much, and they know me now where they bring us two loaves because they know that I'm like I could eat I will I will eat the a whole loaf on my own. Um and it's little things like that that they they remember and that make it uh make it special um for me. And it's so before we started uh the interview, um I mentioned uh that there was one of my favorite books was uh written by uh someone in the hospitality industry and um Unreasonable Hospitality by World Gadara. I'm sure you're you're familiar with that. So that's a great book. So I read that uh a couple of years ago, and obviously it's written uh around this guy who uh in New York City who's running and managing Michelin star restaurants in in New York and um but his perspective on hospitality is i it it changed my view on on different applications that I could make in my business, which is completely different to you know the food and beverage industry uh completely. But um it it drew a lot of parallels to multiple different industries and outside of business too, just in life, and on how you know, even if someone's not paying for an experience or something, the little things that can impact how you connect with someone and how you can you know impact their life in some kind of small way. And um one of the what things that uh that from the book that I s like I r think about all the time and still remember is when they had the parking meters and he had his staff just going out, like finding out where they parked and what they what they drove and going out and putting a quarter in the meter, like that's something that is so small and seemingly insignificant that is actually like such a big thing with uh the guest experience and um and the guest experience seems to be like the biggest focus, uh one of the biggest focuses that you you have and uh and the importance you place on it. Um but also with uh the examples that you were giving of uh you know your team researching the guests before they even come through the doors, it may also make my you know my finance brain makes me think, well you know, those little experiences, for me at least, uh can result in, you know, like uh and I think for a lot of people, uh it has to affect what people tip uh the staff. And so like I'm I'm curious if you have ever noticed kind of what what that does to like your staff turnover, because I mean with an industry industry like that, you know, tips are a huge part of what uh what people earn. And so I have to imagine that the people on your team uh are making a lot more money than they would at a restaurant you know down the street or a bar down the street that's not doing that, you know, doesn't have that level of hospitality and attention to detail and care for the guests.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

Yeah, 100%. I mean it's it's a combination of two things. We we take a two-factor approach to it. I view it as first and foremost, you take care of your team by paying them over and above what is industry standard in your market. So for us, my front of house staff are all making a minimum of $17 an hour plus tips plus PTO. And this year or early next year, I'm trying to see if I can secure $401 funding for them, like give them all $401k accounts, or health benefits, or both. I mean, it it really does depend on the viability of one of those expenses or both those expenses. But at the end of the day, like having a vested interest in your staff initially, especially from the ground level, just giving them a living wage is huge because now the pressure is off of them to deliver exceptional service to get those extra tips. Now they can just be free to be themselves. Now they don't have to worry about having a slow night and not making enough money to bring home at the end of the day. They have sufficient money coming in just from their regular paycheck, and now their tips are just a bonus. So now that's one less thing they have to stress about, which means that they can deliver exceptional hospitality without any additional pressure. So now they're more clear-headed, they're more cognizant of their surroundings, they are more interested in securing more money for themselves at the end of the day, obviously, but they're now more in tune with the needs and wants of the business. And I've always been a very big advocate for that because I've always seen how historically the hospitality industry has paid subpar wages, and as a result, you have high turnovers. So, how do you mitigate high turnover? You just pay your staff more money and you give them the tools they need to be successful. You give them the autonomy to make mistakes, and if it's a bad decision, you you let them know after the fact, hey, you you did X, Y, and Z going forward, this is what I would like you to do instead. So it it's it boils back down to Will's book, which is really people will always forget the drinks, they'll forget the food, but they will never forget how you made them feel. The same is applicable to your staff. If you give them great food and great drinks, but you treat them like crap, they're gonna turn and go. But if you treat them like gold and you go out of your way to understand their personal crises, their issues, uh, their needs, their wants, their expectations, their dreams and hopes, congratulations. You now have somebody who is an advocate for your business twenty four seven. They're gonna be actively rooting for you and supporting you even when they're off the clock, and that is something that you just cannot buy.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

One hundred percent. Um and have uh have you had do have you had or do you have any stuff that um Have been inspired by the way that you do this, who have gone on to start their own ventures in the hospitality industry?

SPEAKER_01 22:11

You know, it's funny. I actually have had one staff member who ended up landing a job at Deaf and Company in uh DC, and he reached out to me after working with me for a few months, and I said, Look, you're here, but you're here temporarily. Just understand that this job with us at Lone Wolf or whatever venue I have is kind of a pause. It's a hiccup in your road. But if we can teach you something, if we can make you better, take that knowledge, run with it, and hopefully you move on to something better and you make more money and you make better decisions and you get exposed to more cool things. And he reached out to me a few months ago and he said, Hey man, like I put you down as a reference with Death and Company. I hope I get it. And then a couple weeks later, hey, I got the job and I'm working at Death and Company. And then a few weeks later, I hear from one of the managers from DNC, who's a friend of mine, who's like, Hey, I'm really glad that we brought this kid Alex on. He's amazing, he's such such a good asset to the team. And I was like, I'm glad to know that my training actually does work.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Well, that must feel really amazing. Uh, because especially when it's someone who's um who's really just with you for a short amount of time, uh, it's being able to impact their life obviously considerably in just that short amount of time, and and it's clear that education is something that you're very passionate about. Um have you always been a natural educator or teacher or mentor?

SPEAKER_01 23:44

I don't think I've always been a natural one, but I have found that when I was starting off in the industry at the tender young age, like the staff around me were just very good about showing me the processes, taking their time, educating me on the products, on the processes, on what could potentially go wrong. And I took that to heart because I realized that that was the way I learned is hands-on experience. So then I started applying that when I worked not just at the casino, but also at my other venues. What is the best way to train people? And sometimes you just have to sit down, pause, and ask, is this model work for you? Because some people are visual learners, some people are hung up more on paperwork and would prefer just to memorize facts, but at the end of the day, like you have to have the flexibility to have hybrid models available to everyone so that way you can ensure that they are familiar with what's going on and they can convey it accurately to your guests.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Yeah. Um, I mean, that's it's something I think about a lot often as well, um, as our team grows, is that it's the way that I learn and the way that I receive, you know, the way that I communicate is going to be different to every single person on my team, and learning to understand each person on my team from as deep a level as I personally you know possibly can get, um, so that I understand what's important to them, how um, you know, how they think, how they receive communication uh in the most effective way, how they learn. Um it's uh you know, it's something that I'm it's it's always uh you're always learning uh about as you go through this, and um, and you know, every new person I bring on the team, there's a a new variation of uh personality type with that's not alike to anyone else uh who's on the team to begin with. And um but then when you when you're able to crack that code and uh and speak to each person and you know in their language, uh the you know the outcome of that is like is amazing and and you're able to connect with people on such a deeper level and it able to all be aligned on uh you know on a centralized mission for what you're all trying to collectively achieve rather than just being a job that you clock in and clock out of and you know checking boxes, uh you know, it's it it turns from just checking boxes to uh collectively trying to achieve achieve outcomes and get different outcomes and and you know service. Um and is that well, I guess I'll ask you in in your industry, um why do you think why do you think so many food and beverage businesses fail?

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Oh that is that is a very very loaded question. The reason I say that is because we all have we all have shared trauma, and I think that's one of the reasons why so many people gravitate towards this industry, because we don't fit into the traditional boxes of a nine to five job, or we're not content with working for someone else, we might have an idea that might become an opinion that's a little too strong and we are just a little too loud about it. But when it comes to the failing of a business, if a business has an amazing team and amazing food and amazing guests, sometimes there are factors that are just simply outside of our control. Like sometimes there's environmental factors like the economy that we simply just cannot fathom, we cannot predict. And unfortunately, the biggest thing that I've always found in our line of work is many of us are just simply undercapitalized. Like, I do not know many F and B professionals who are both creative and financially minded. Like, you can either be one or the other, but it's very rare where you can find somebody who's able to do both successfully. And this is why you see so many people who go into a partnership where one person is the money person and one person is the creative person, and you put those two talents together, and in theory, the business is viable for five, ten, fifteen years. But the truth of the matter is that 15-20 years ago, the economy was so different. We're talking about where it was the 30-30-30 rule where it was 30% cost of goods, 30% labor, uh, 30% miscellaneous utilities and fixed costs, and then you had a 10% profit margin. Now, the way the economy is going, all those numbers are just out the window. And we're talking about single-digit profit margins. Like in this current economy, between post-pandemic, let's just call it the last six years, everything has shifted so much where now, if you are turning a 3% profit margin, you should consider yourself lucky. And if you're turning a 5% profit margin or five cents for every dollar that comes in, that's incredible. Because that is quite literally the new normal, and it's not sustainable, unfortunately. Like the costs of everything have risen so much, and banks are so heavily regulated that they're not willing to lend to small businesses, especially in the FB scene, as much as they used to in the past. So unfortunately, a lot of us as operators, we're forced to rely on either really, really good sales for the weekend, which basically covers our week and covers our costs. And then Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday is the days that we basically make extra income. And by extra, I mean literally for incidentals, if your dishwasher broke down or your grill caught fire or some other horrible thing happened. But like at the end of the day, like many of us do not have the luxury of a cushion financially to tie ourselves over for three months, six months, nine months. Like most of us are literally relying on sales from week to week, and it's only if you own an asset outright, like a building, where you don't have the overhead of rent bearing down on you that that you're able to breathe a little bit more comfortably, but still it's not easy.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

So you said it was, you know, that's it's gotten to a point where it is unsustainable at those three you know, to five percent profit margin, single digit margins. Um what do you see you know, obviously no one can predict into the future, but what do you see at least uh or what's your take or opinion on on a better way to do it if uh that it would be more sustainable?