The Neurobiology of Trust & Defeating Imposter Syndrome w/ John Bates (Part 1) - Ep. 4

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Hello and welcome to the No Trade Secrets Podcast. I'm your host, Jerome McKenzie, and this podcast is here to explore the deeper systems behind business and life, the beliefs, the habits, and the decisions that shape growth long before the numbers appear. Today we are talking with John Bates. John is a husband, a father, globally recognized leadership communication expert, executive coach, best-selling author, and keynote speaker who is on a mission to make your communication as mighty as your ideas. As one of the world's most prolific TED format coaches, John has trained hundreds of TED and TEDx speakers and thousands of executives from top organizations, including NASA Astronauts, Johnson ⁇ Johnson J Labs, GE Aerospace, US Navy Special Operations, and Boston Scientific. John's approach is grounded in human neurobiology and evolutionary psychology, giving leaders science-backed tools to inspire trust, communicate clearly, and create real influence, even in the most technical high-stakes environments. Known for transforming speaking anxiety into authentic executive presence, John is a widely recommended as the best leadership communication coach working today. After famously blowing it during his first TED Talk, he returned to become a world-renowned speaker and coach, helping leaders turn their expertise into compelling, TED-worthy communication that moves people to action. John, thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

I'm glad to be here, Jerome. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

So I met you first uh just over two years ago uh at Tommy Breedlove's uh Your Life, Your Legend in Tampa, Florida. You were one of the keynote speakers. And um I pulled out my notebook from that conference this morning, and it really was evident how much um what you covered in that in that session actually has really shaped my entrepreneurial journey uh um for the last two years since I started my company, which happened only a couple of weeks after we met. And I don't know if you remember, but I came up to you after your session and I told you that that what you just said and what everything you just covered uh really changed my life. And I've you know, I don't, you know, and and I don't say that lightly either, and I'm sure that you get that often, and and I think I even said that to you, but um it's uh it's really amazing on some of the you know, reading some of these notes from a couple of years ago and how it's really built a lot of the foundation for how I approach business and communication and relationships and have built everything to this point. So uh first of all, thank you for for that um uh you know over two years ago.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Um Wow, you are so welcome. And I it it's it's a like I I you may not know how much that means to me. Like I would like to convey that means a lot to me. And you know, I hear from people, I mean, I've been doing this for 15 years, but uh I think a lot of people just kind of assume that I know and don't tell me because I don't hear that often. And I remember you coming up to me, I remember it vividly, and I remember talking with you, and uh I was really, really impressed with your presence, and I was really excited to see where you were gonna go with things, and it touched me deeply. And and I I mean, what an honor. Like you still have my notes in your notebook, you've got it there, you know where it is. Thank you, Tommy Breedlove. Uh, you know, I'm now in his inner circle. Uh a lot, you know, a lot of the stuff he does has really made a big difference for me. And meeting you was a highlight of that year when I got to speak.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Yeah, well, thank you. And it's it's um it's it's uh you know, this is an area that uh I've been um you know, have really come a long way uh in the last couple of years uh from especially what was my biggest challenge starting out and for the first six months after starting my business was this uh overwhelming feeling of uh imposter syndrome. Um and the things that you went over, and you know, and we stepped uh we stayed in touch after uh that and you actually you were kind enough to uh give me some coaching as well on that, and which has really changed the way that I uh I I communicate with people, and uh especially when it comes to the power of uh your origin story, that has been a tool that I've used. Uh yeah, I mean it's that's been it's been the core foundation of of just uh what has really been the most uh my favorite part of this journey has been like authentic, real deep human connection. And um and you help open my eyes that uh you know we all have an origin story and and uh and the power of that and that has been kind of what started has started uh some of the best friendships and relationships uh that I I have right now, uh that I've I've been able to form over the last couple of years.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

Um And have you have you noticed, Jerome, when you share that, you know, what I call a well-chosen, well-crafted, well-told origin story, I think it's your number one asset as a leader, as you know, a colleague, and just as a human being. And I'm curious to notice if when you share that, one of the things that I think is the most important piece about sharing your origin story is that it makes it safe for other people to share theirs. And I find that when I share my origin story, I open up things that I probably wasn't gonna hear any other way, and and that door to really deep human connection because I was willing to go first, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Yeah, no, and I think uh you know, the power of going first uh and the gift of going first is has been something that has unlocked a lot of uh a lot of those deep um conversations with people, you know, str strangers, being able to actually meet a stranger for the first time, first conversation, and get deep into like really the essence of that person and what is really important in not just business but in life. You know, what is you know you know, conversations about purpose and like why why are you here? What is your reason for being? And I think that's where uh you know vulnerability and going first, sharing that story um can be uh inviting and uh to the other person, and and something that I you know and goes to say something that I wrote down from that uh that keynote you uh two years ago. Uh people don't connect with your success, they connect with your misses. Your message is in your misses.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

Yes, yes, that's number one of the three ways to connect with and inspire any audience, anywhere, anytime. And I learned that from Les Brown. So thank you, Les. And I'm super glad that it's in your notebook and that you've been thinking about it. Tell me, tell me more about it.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

I mean, it's I think, especially in this, I mean, this day and age, uh, with social media and just how anyone can portray the uh whatever image of themselves that they want, that there is this uh seemingly unrealistic expectation of what is normal and what success looks like and how people get there. And I think it's yeah, yeah uh it's you know it can be kind of uh it can be deflating, uh especially to new entrepreneurs that are navigating this for the first time. Uh you know, overnight successes uh are not overnight successes, but it might look like that from across the street. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

My my saying is it's it's easy to be an overnight success when you've been doing something for 10 years.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Right. And it's um and I feel like, and you know, that is really the uh, you know, why I started this podcast too is uh you know, no trade secrets. It's not you know, that's in business in life, and it's about um sh having conversations with people from different backgrounds who have been on different journeys and being able to share those things uh cu that you know, which a big part of that is including the the lessons and the failures, which you know obviously um you know I you know I I've been able to um get to the point where I welcome all challenges and because there's there's no there's no failure, there's only lessons, there's only learning and growth that comes from it, and the best things uh in life that I've found have come through being you know having those seemingly um impossible challenges that combined with a mindset that no matter what you will overcome it and you will learn from it. Um but um back to you know, like when I it was the first six or so months after starting um my company, I would wake up every morning and the routine was I'd feel sick to my stomach. Uh welcome to entrepreneurship. With this with this feeling of what the hell am I doing? Like, what have I got myself into? Uh, and that imposter syndrome. Um and this maybe the single most impactful thing, uh, you know, sentence that you uh you said at that uh that keynote two years ago was that your credibility is already assumed. And then shifting that to okay, establish emotional credibility. That when I was able to believe that, and that changed everything with communicating with people, and um I'd love it if you could go into that a little bit more, so uh, because I'm sure there's there's a lot of people out there that have uh have been through or going through or will go through that same imposter syndrome uh challenge.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Well, let's so I'd love to, and and I'm gonna I'm gonna give you this slightly longer answer. I hope that's okay. Of course. Yeah. So so it's like 2001 or so, and I am in, it's early, early 2001, and I am in San Francisco UCSF hospital, and the doctors are looking at me like they're scared, and I think that I am probably gonna die because of how they're looking at me and what they're telling me. And I look back over my life like people do, and I realize that okay, I've been a nice guy. Like I I really don't think I was evil or bad, but man, I was just super selfish. It was always about me. I'm gonna succeed. I'll take you with me, but it's about me, me, me. Right. And as I look back over my life, I realize that is just not the legacy I want to leave. And so in 1998, a few years before, I co-founded with three other guys, a dot-com company called BigWords.com. And we sold college textbooks to students over the internet, cheaper than the bookstore. And there was a lot of price discrepancies that, you know, across the country. And we were gonna, you know, take some of that margin, share it with the customer, keep some ourselves, and you know, democratize textbook prices across the United States. And we were doing really, really well. We were growing, we were growing market share. We did not, you know, we weren't spending ridiculous money on marketing. We had a total shoestring budget and we were winning awards for being the best marketers around. And then on October 20th, 2000, our investors walked in and they said, uh, okay, boys, you've done a good job. Uh and we don't think that you are going to be profitable fast enough. And the market has changed, and we can't raise, you know, we we don't think we can raise any more money, so we're just gonna pull the plug right now. And that was after raising $80 million or more, more than $80 million, being on the, you know, being in Wired, being in all the magazines, speaking at all the conferences for year two years about the new economy, right? And boom, like later that afternoon, I was across the street at the 21st Amendment or whatever it is, drinking a beer with my team, crying in my beer. And then I went in a corner and I cried about it. I was so ashamed and embarrassed and and angry and hurt and ashamed and just every negative emotion you can imagine. And then not long after that, I had this weird version of Stevens-Johnson syndrome start, an autoimmune disease where you're you get you get uh ulcerations in your mucous membrane. Your mucous membrane starts to sloth off, you get dots on your skin, the dots connect, your skin sloughs off, you go blind, and then you die in the burn unit. And I was now in the hospital with that, thinking that that was going to be how I went out. And so I said to the universe, you know, I call it the universe, the big is the beingness of whatever something bigger than me. And I said, you know, if you let me walk out of here, I promise that I will make my number one goal be to make a difference. Everything else will be secondary, I promise. And I got to walk out, and I was not okay for like a while. It took me a while to recover. Um, they said it was due to lack of sleep and stress. So, you know, welcome to being an entrepreneur. But look, don't compromise your sleep. If you're winning the battle, I slept less than you last night. That's a stupid battle to win. You make better decisions when you get eight hours of sleep. You will be fundamentally more successful if you take care of yourself. You, as the entrepreneur, are the asset. Everything else is secondary, but I didn't know that. And so, you know, I did keep that promise. And that's why I'm here right now. That's why I'm doing the business I'm doing, because Jerome, I was in the wilderness for several years after that, not knowing what to do, consulting here and there, not making any money. And by the time I started this business, the last dot-com job that I had that was part-time and not paying me anywhere near enough money dried up and was gone. And I had just gotten married and I loved my wife and I wanted to provide a great life for her. And bye-bye, you know? And so I spent a while thinking about what I could do. But I'm an entrepreneur, right? So I did everything. I ran customer service, I cleaned up the garbage, I washed the dishes, I welcomed people to work. Like I didn't have a specialty, but then I realized, oh, public speaking. Like I know that I make a difference when I help people with that. I've seen what I've done for my colleagues and my friends and stuff. I'm gonna go in and be a public speaking coach. And I talked to my friends who would be the kind of people that would hire a public speaking coach, like at PR firms and things. And they're like, you don't want to be a public speaking coach. You'll never make any money. Like, that's that's a terrible idea. Don't do it. So, dude, for a for a little while, I cried about that and tried to figure out what else to do, and I couldn't find anything else. So I just did this anyway because I knew I made a difference when I do this. And that was what the decision finally came down to was like, okay, I made a promise that I would do that I would make a difference, and that would be my number one goal. And I know that this makes a difference, so screw the money. I'm just gonna do it anyway. And I was fifty thousand dollars plus in debt at that point. And for the first year, I went further in debt, and then the next year, I kind of almost broke even. And then the third year, I made more than I had ever made in my whole life ever. And then the next year I doubled that plus, and then the next year I tripled that plus. You know, I was way out of debt, had savings, my, you know, accounts were growing. And I look back on that and and you know, it was that promise that I made in that hospital to make a difference. Because if I had done what I normally did, which is try and decide what business I was going to do, on, you know, I knew you had to provide value. So I did think about that as an entrepreneur with things like big words, but my real goal was extractive, I will admit. You know, I was ultimately looking at how much money I could make. When I started this business, there was no extractive thought. Like I was like, okay, screw it. I'm just gonna do it anyway. So, you know, people like to say burn the boats. I'm like, well, the boats caught fire by themselves, and I couldn't manage to put them out. So, you know, that's what happened. But so that's how this whole thing started, and it comes back to that promise I made to make a difference, which is what helped me override my natural clinginess to oh um, you know, can I make a lot of money?

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Yeah, well, no, that's I mean, it's I think that approach is uh is is something that uh is less less common of a of a mindset or uh an approach than I you know I think sh um should be out there, you know, as far as trade secrets go.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

I mean that's uh you know in a similar kind of way when you know day one of starting my company, I had to ask myself, how can I get how can I get up, make sure that I can get up every morning and be excited for the day ahead and love what I'm doing. And uh it wasn't it wasn't about the numbers, the accounting finance stuff, because I knew that that was you know, that's just a you know, that's just a thing that there is a ceiling to how passionate or how much purpose you can you know derive from that. But uh so I had to look a deeper and ask what is what is the thing that I love the most about about life and what am I most passionate about in life, and it's always been um helping people, being of service of some way, whether it's in business or uh, you know, a stranger on the street, you know, or a friend. Um that's how I you know that's what fills me up is as being of service and and helping people. And so um, and that's shaped how how I've built my business uh as well. And it's um, you know, I think it's the you know, I think a a lot of people focus on the financial outcomes as the main thing in the center of their their focus when uh really I I believe that that is just a natural consequence of of doing Things the right way of providing something valuable, of being of service and making it an impact in whatever realm it is. You know, not everyone is going to be saving lives uh for what they do, but everyone, no matter what industry, whether that's uh for what you do, whether it's accounting and finance, you can make an impact that goes deeper than just uh the thing, you know, the transaction. Um and that's how I, you know, that's how I view it, is I want my impact to go past, you know, we I we serve businesses and business owners. Um, but I my impact that I want to have is where that extends into their personal life and into their family and into their relationships with their wife and their kids, and you know, being able to not be at the office until you know midnight trying to figure out how they're gonna make payroll, but instead be at home uh and going to all you know the uh the kids' sports events, recitals, yeah, being able to be present with the their family and not thinking about that thing. That's that's the type of impact I want to have. And I know that that's that's how you approach this, and then the success, however that's defined by each person, that's just uh it's a byproduct. It's it's it's the output that comes from having that input.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Well, you know, I I I definitely think that my definition of success includes deep fulfillment. I look at a lot of people who have way more money than I have, and I don't think they're nearly as successful because they're not fulfilled. And I also, I mean, dude, I'm too old to do it if it's not fun. It's gotta be fun, you know. I mean, and like you're gonna do it if it's not fun, and you're gonna do that for the rest of your life. Like, really, you know, I just I mean, and listen, I realize how lucky I am to be able to say that. And I also think that there is some mental jujitsu in how you see things. Uh, one of the things I think is really important. Uh, I was taught this years ago, and it just really blew my mind. Integrity is honoring your word. You're not always gonna keep your word, like sometimes you will break a promise, right? But you can still honor it by the moment you know you can't keep your word, you call the person, you say, Hey, I can't, I I can't, I'm gonna be late. What can I do to make it up for you? Here's when I will be there, blah, blah, blah, right? So you can honor your word. You can do things like they're meant to be done, whether anyone's watching or not, like kind of those standard sides of integrity. But the the other side of the coin of integrity that I never thought of till someone showed this to me is that it is actually a matter of integrity to have an empowering context for yourself and your life. And if if you go very long without being empowered in what you're doing, that's actually out of integrity, you know? And uh it reminds me of the story of the guy who is walking along the road and he sees this guy down on his knees, mortar and a brick, mortar and a brick, mortar and a brick, mortar and a brick. He says, What are you doing? And the guy says, Oh, I'm laying bricks. And he's like, Okay, and he walks on a little further and he comes across another guy doing exactly the same thing: mortar and a brick, mortar and a brick, mortar and a brick, mortar and a brick. I says, and he says to this guy, so uh what are you doing? And the guy looks up at him and says, Oh, why I'm building a cathedral, I'm building a temple, right? That's an empowering context. On some level, we're all laying bricks, but like what is the context that you're doing that inside of, right? Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Yeah. Well, it's uh context is everything, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 26:24

Everything decisive.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Yeah, yep.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

So can I give you another aspect of context and go back to the monkey mind thing, just so I don't forget to or to not the monkey mind thing, we could talk about that, but the the monkey mind is the one that's telling you you're an imposter, and you're not actually your monkey mind, that chattering voice that says all that negative stuff about everything and everybody and judges and all that. That's your monkey mind. You're not that mind, you're not that voice. You're this, you're the big silent presence that's listening to that. And in terms of context, this was a big game changer for me. Years ago, I went to the Milk and uh center in Santa Monica and I was there for this big event honoring this, I forget his name even, but at the time he was already in his early 80s, super sharp, brilliant guy, had a stack of business books that go this high off the floor, you know. And he was getting yet another honorary doctorate from the Milken Institute. So big honor. And as they were interviewing him at this event that I was attending, I became really conscious of the fact, as I really listened to what he said, that he still genuinely had some imposter syndrome going on. Dude, this guy, I mean, it doesn't get better, it just gets different. He had all these award-winning books, he'd want given all these honorary doctors, and he still had imposter syndrome. And in that moment, I was like, okay, if that guy has it, everybody has it. So it's like working with fractions. If all the fractions have the same denominator, if there's a two underneath every single fraction you're working with, just get rid of the two and do the work, you know. So we could just divide by imposter syndrome, get rid of it, and it's gone, you know. So that was a big context shift for me to go from thinking I was one of the few people that had imposter syndrome to realizing no, I'm one of the everybody who has it. It's not helping anybody, so let's just forget about it.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

Yeah, no, and that's it's a great point. It's it's um, you know, we think you know, we think that we're the only person sometimes to go through this challenge or this this thing. Um when in reality it's uh it's a it's a quiet uh symptom that everyone faces. Uh and no matter how many times you've done it, how many how much you've accomplished uh or how much you've practiced. You know, it's it's everyone deals with the same things because that's what makes us what makes us human, right? Um I'm reading um something here. I don't know if you knew that I had uh I rank Mr. John Bates in the top one percent of all military and civilian members I have served with in my 31 years of military service. His leadership and communication skills are unmatched. That is from a naval commander. Um that's um first of all, that is that is uh praise that not everyone can will you know can say that they have uh being in the top one percent of all military and civilian members for a naval commander with 31 years of military service.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

That is Commodore Oscar Rojas, and when I saw that letter of recommendation that he wrote for me to NORAD, I cried. I was so because he is an unbelievable powerhouse, like that guy is something else. And when he said that about me, boy, talk about imposter syndrome and monkey mind, and like, oh my god, like he must have like meant to write this about someone else, you know. I I I mean, I read that, and I there are two times when I have just spontaneously burst into tears, like in a huge way in my career. I mean, I definitely am, I get moved and I get touched and stuff, but um, when I got to train all the active NASA astronauts, they gave me an astronaut office coin, challenge coin, and told me that I was part of the family. And you can't buy that challenge coin. They only you can only get it when they give it to you. And I was in front of the whole active astronaut core, and I burst into tears and cried like a little baby in front of all of them when they gave me that. And when I saw this letter, I actually have it framed and on my wall right here, um, from Oscar. That was another one of the times when I just burst into tears. I was so moved and honored and just present as something special, you know. I uh I try to be the guy he thinks I am, you know.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

Yeah, well, I mean, that's uh I mean that's just evident the that's you know, when you at the beginning, when people were saying you'll never make it, and then to have an endorsement like that, it just shows the type of impact that you you have. Um and that's a great juxtaposition.

SPEAKER_00 32:23

I haven't ever put those two things right next to each other in my mind. Thank you for that. That's a really good one.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

But you know, so for for someone of that uh stature to say his leadership and communication skills are unmatched. What what makes a good communicator?

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Ooh, really good question. Really good question. Um of the things that I think goes deep for a lot of the people that I work with can be summed up this way, and then I can explain it a little bit more. But uh I tell people communicating with human beings is not logical. You may have noticed. It's not logical, it's biological. And when you understand the biology, you can make it logical again. But if you go in thinking logic by itself should win, just never be very effective with human beings. And what that missing piece is, and I, you know, I I go into it in my courses and stuff, the neurobiology of all this, but the bottom line of it all is logic by itself is necessary. You have to make sense, you got to have a good business plan, but it is not sufficient. If you do not make an emotional connection, what ends up happening is you get yes, yes, yes, no. Yes, we like it, yes, it's priced right, yes, we love it. We'd love it'd make a difference to have it, but no, we're not quite ready yet. Okay, why would somebody say yes, yes, yes, we love it, we love it, we love it. No. Here's why: logic, logic, logic, emotion. We logically they wanted it, but the logical brain has to get through the emotional brain to get to the spinal column to sign the check. So if we don't have an emotional connection, then we get yes, yes, yes, no. The logical brain's all in, but the emotional brain says nope, and it is the final arbiter. And when people who are really, really logical and really, really competent and really, really capable, like Oscar Rojas and his team at EOD. He when I worked with him the first time, it was EOD explosive ordnance disposal. And uh they are some of the smartest people in the world. And they are very logical and they are willing to walk up and clip wires on a bomb so that it won't blow everybody up, right? They take that risk and they've got to be smart enough to know what they're doing. So they're super smart people. And I was really scared when I went to work with them for the first time. I I because all of my stuff is about, oh, you've got to make an emotional connection. And I was like, dude, these special operations guys are gonna like chew me up and spit me out, right? Like, I got to do something different. I can't do what I usually do. But the reason they hired me is for what I usually do. So I went and did it anyway, even though I was terrified that they were just gonna laugh me out of the room. And I got to spend two days initially there with them. And afterwards, a lot of people shook my hand and said, Thank you, John. This is what the military needs more of. And I was so gratified to hear that because I had been so scared they were gonna say, like, yeah, we don't have this is war, we don't have time to make an emotional connection. But these guys are out there working in foreign countries with people who don't speak English, they've got to make relationships quickly, they need to establish trust quickly, they need to communicate clearly, or people die. And when they understood, oh my gosh, there's a biological reason that I need to connect with someone. It's not just froo-fru. It's actually really real, a real biological need. And here's a few ways to do that, and here's how to think about that. I think it really transformed their thinking and their approach. And, you know, I think that's why Oscar would write something like that. And uh, and and again, it goes back to imposter syndrome. Man, walking in the door, I was terrified that they were just gonna laugh me out of the room. And after two days, I got the kind of comments that showed me that it had really been useful, and then I got that recommendation later. And uh, and I'm really glad I didn't give in to that, you know, imposter syndrome and just did what I do.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

Well, yeah, no, and I think it can be, yeah. That's I mean, that's certainly an intimidating room to walk into, you know. And I'm sure there's and I'm sure that's a lot of uh did you did you find that what you thought was gonna be their response to that uh you know, biological emotional part of communication was how much of that was a stereotype from what we you put you thought that military people, uh, especially in that kind of environment were like, versus uh like were they, you know, they did you find that they were just uh no different to anyone else who is not, you know, uh yeah safe from detonating bombs. They're just not just they're just they're just humans.